Diablo ha scritto:Ok. I'm sorry, yes, I meant Tezzeret as a
second finisher with those decks reshuffle the graveyard (the plane of the mill opponent is the main finisher).
Have you thought of putting
Leyline of the Void,
Faerie Macabre or similar cards in sideboard? Or these cards are too situational and/or specific for a few match-up (Eldrazi creatures are the classic example)?
Leyline of the Void is good, but
Grafdigger's Cage does a better job since it can also stop
Birthing Pod and some other stuff. Its tutorable with tezz or infernal and its also an artifact so it helps in metalcraft and you can find it with stirrings or recur it with ruins, and costs 1 mana.
Faerie Macabre seems bad. When you want to nullify graveyards you usually want to make it worthless, not just exile 2 cards. Being a creature won't help in any plan since the opponent could be holding on to removal since turn 1. And having it in hand waiting for targets to exile is bad because you want to empty your hand as soon as possible to activate
Ensnaring bridge and use your
infernal tutors. Again,
Grafdigger's cage does a better job. Its like the needles, it answers some problem cards (Grudge, Snapcaster and Pod being the main ones) better than anything else and you can dump it or mill it if you don't need it, then recur it back if you need it later on. Theres just 1 main and 2 in the SB because its most effective on games 2 & 3. Needle on the other hand is very useful in game 1 and more useful in games 2 & 3, thats why I always suggest running 2 mainboard and 1 more in the SB for consistency in games 2 & 3. Those 2 cards and bridge are softlocks by themselves, the lantern combo helps protecting those locks by controlling the draws. Its very bizarre but it works surprisingly effective.
Do not run
Rest in Peace. It prevents you from using academy ruins and codex's second ability. Again Cage wins hands down since the only way in which cage affects us is by stopping our faithless looting's flashback. Nothing else since we can still use ruins and codex to get stuff back.
You also don't need leyline to win vs eldrazi, you just lock them and win with tezz. The key to eldrazi is Duress, Ensnaring Bridge and Pithing Needle. Beast Within also helps. Duress should be good enouh to stall them, Bridge defeats emrakul, Pithing needle stop Oblivion Stone, Karn or Mindslaver, I always play the needle before they play their card if I know what they got in hand (after playing duress for example), if I don't know what they have in hand my top priority is on needling O.Stone since it kills everything if we let it go off (Although you can have a lock back up in two turns if you got ruins in play). Stone is a better target than Karn because Karn kills one permanent at a time which gives you time to find an answer. Basically the deck is very fast so the opponent usually just has one problem card in the opening hand and we should have no trouble dealing with it and making sure they don't draw anything else that hurt us.
There is also a nifty trick we found when figuring how to deal against
Ancient Grudge (before we had G.Cage). If you have more than 1 lantern in play or if you have ruins in play you can shuffle their top card. For example, if their top card is Ancient Grudge and you don't have Cage or anything to stop it from flashback you can use a lantern and shuffle it deeper into the library rather than mill it, that way you can keep certain cards that could hurt you from the graveyard in the library. Emrakul is another example, shufle it deep into the library and it won't reset the graveyard. But you need ruins to bring the lantern back. There are a lot of tricks not easily noticebale, last night I had an Opal on the field and opal on hand and Infernal Tutor. I wouldn't play tutor to find yet another opal so I floated mana with my last land and the opal on field, played my opal in hand to kill em both with legend rule and then played tutor with the floated mana on an empty hand. Also remember legend rule is about to change which will make opal and ruins that much more useful.
Vexac ha scritto:@Zerodown:
Very good primer, from that and other users's decklists i found some idea to improve my
version
First of all, i LOVE Infernal Tutor, cos 9 times of 10 it's a real Demonic Tutor, for the low mana cost of our spells
I see your list doesn't play too much discards, like mine does, but it has a lot of answers to almost every metagame deck, all played maindeck and easy tutorable (pyroclasm, beast within, pithing needle etc), so it should be a valid alternative
I try inserting tutors in my hand-controlling version, and see how it works
The lantern combo is cheap, efficient and colorless. It's open to many variations because you can splash any color so you just pick your colors and build a deck around the core. Some of the guys in the other topic are trying to make lists with
counterbalance but I don't think it works because you can control draws so you wont be countering much and early on if you play balance rather than the lantern lock then you don't get to counter much without being able to manipulate the tops. Others want to build lists aimed at land denial, but its very hard because you need to hit lands while setting up the locks, which slows the deck and you end up dead. Others suggested creature lists, others wanted to work with
Trash for Treasure, and at one point we were testing
Timesifter as a finisher because you can keep taking infinite turns while milling the opponent, but at 5cc it turned out to be overkill. We finally settled on tezz mostly.
Infernal is awesome, early on you find locking pieces or a bridge, late game you tutor tezz and wrap up the game. At first I was hesitant because you need to be hellbent and it costs 2, but its really good because the deck is built to empty the hand really fast. Yesterday in a match I left 5 mana open and passed the turn, at the opponent's EOT I activated codex, got Infernal back and in my turn I played INfernal, tutored Tezz and played tezz for the game. Even in the graveyard its still an useful card. A lot of people undervalue codex's second ability, with a deck that auto mills your garevyard is very resourceful which makes codex and ruins very valuable.
I play few discard and its Duress rather than Thoughtsieze or Kozilek because Kozilek has a 3cc limitation and Thoughtseize costs 2 life. Duress is good enough because other than Snapcaster there really aren't much creatures that you couldn't easily control with Dispatch, Pyroclasm, Bridge, Beast Within or Pithing Needle. Usually the opponent just has one card that is problematic in the opening hand, so if you can set the lantern lock fast and hit their key card with duress, you should be fine. Because of that, discard is usually only useful once since after that we will be controlling what they draw. The other bad side to having lots of discard is that once you set the locks discard spells become useless since they shouldn't be able to draw anything worth discarding. The best discard trick I've found so far is
Necrogen Spellbomb. Its an artifact that costs 1 so it fits perfectly, you should get it to the grave either by activating it or discarding it, then once you have 4 mana and ruins on the field you can bring spellbomb back every turn and activate it on the opponent's draw step, they won't be able to draw a card ever again. You would only need to mill instants with the lantern combo and make them discard eveything else with spellbomb+ruins. It works, I just don't use it due to lack of deck space.
I'd like to see your new variations after reading the primer, glad you liked it.
niko47 ha scritto:hi Zerodown, I am that guy
Maybe u can recognize/remember the name niko47
I was really unhappy when you left the game in g2, becouse i would like to use my sb
Obviously i m joking. I actually play the list that you can read above, but i admit that your list is more stable and sturdy than mine , that's undeniable...Just to make sure everyone knows: he defeated my new eggs deck at 2nd turn, having the perfect and total control of the board
I ll try your list, hoping for funny games. Just few question:
1)How's the match up against control decks? (i ve forgotten the answer
)
2)If the opponent plays Nature's Claim (or another removal) on lantern + Asportare or Surgical Extraction? This could occur before you have 5 mana to use Codex Shredded ability.
3) Have this deck in real? Have you made some tournaments? Share your match up with us please.
See you soon on MWS for G2
I do remember you, sorry for leaving, girlfriend was waiting for dinner hehe. I'll gladly do some testing games if we can set it up (Time zones). On that game, I actually googled some rulings and
Pithing Needle won't stop
Krark-Clan Ironworks. But I think I would have won anyways since I had played duress on your ironworks and I wouldn't have let you draw another one with lantern and codex already on the field. Again, if we figure out an hour we can play some more games.
1. Against control, basically you either play your pieces before counters are active or you bait them into countering something and then play your combo piece. But usually you should be dorpping lantern and another piece within the first 2 turns os its hard to counter. They have to counter both the lantern pieces and bridge since a bridge stops them from winning too. We either play it too fast for them to counter, or we have enough mana to play multiple spells in turns 2 and 3 so they won't counter everything (tahst where you play baits). Even if they counter some stuff you can start using ruins soon enough.
Here is another nifty trick to find the lantern. If you have 2 mana and academy on the field and need to find a lantern you can start milling yourself at the opponent's EOT with codex & bells trying to mill a lantern so you can use ruins to put it back and draw it in your turn.
2. If you lose lantern to surgical or extirpate you'll probably lose, you'll only be able to look at the opponent's top card once a turn at his EOT with the ruins_bauble combo. You keep using ruins to bring back bauble and tap it at the opponent's EOT, you get to control 50% of their draws (in theory) and you still get a draw off the library because bauble draws you a card in the next ukpeek. It'll be pretty tough to lose a lantern like that and you better keep that bridge alive if it happens, but the odds of that happening are very small. Because they need to both get lantern into the grave and then surgical it. Duress and more discard off the SB are very good at handling that. It could definitely happen, it just would happen very rarely. Duress really is that good because the deck can control the draws by turn 1 with a little luck, but in overall turns 2 & 3 are where it grabs hold of the opponent. So usually the opponent gets from 7 to 9 cards before we set up the lantern combo, out of those usually we just want to make them discard one and its usually a spell not a creature.
3. Sadly I don't have the deck for real. I play online as a hobby because of lack of time and money to play at real events. But thats why I enjoy discussing the deck rather than keep it a secret to win tournaments, I'm proud of it and just want it to spread hehe. I'm actually waiting for other members over there to bring torunament reports so I can add to the primer. If you guys get any I'd love to see how it does because honestly I hardly ever lose with that specific list. If anyone tests that exact list I'd really like to hear their comments to keep imrpoving it.
alvoi ha scritto:What do you say about Auriok Salvagers? If you don't see Academy Ruins it can return your lanters from the grave.
Che ne dite di Auriok Salvagers? Se non si vede Academy Ruins può far tornare le lanterne dal cimitero.
EDIT @niko: How did this deck defeated you at the second turn?? And the match-ups are in the primer:
EDIT @niko: Come ha fatto questo mazzo a batterti al secondo turno??? E i match-up li ha scritti nel primer:
Auriok costs 5 mana which is way bad. Academy does the job just fine. If you want something more maybe you could run
Buried Ruins.
Also, I didnf't actually defeat niko47, I just had him locked by turn 2 after using duress on his Ironworks. I did set a needle on ironworks just to make sure since I figured it was his keycard, but I have read that needle won't stop ironworks. Game could have gone longer, but I already had the lantern combo and I had duressed ironworks in hand.
@Everyone: The primer I posted should be read from page 11 and forward because thats where it started getting good and I re-did the primer because the list was very different.
Throughout the primer there are posts by me with pictures on the matchups and in the mathcup section of the primer I cover very briefly how to deal with top decks. It needs expanding though.
